GCU Forum - Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs

Doreen_137017

Gold Member
artist

Posts: 5274

Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs
Reply #45 - Feb 11^th, 2011, 8:19am

Quote from Petra_Katrine_137769 on Feb 11^th, 2011, 7:51am:

Quote from Doreen_137017 on Feb 10^th, 2011, 11:41am:

Quote from Petra_Katrine_137769 on Feb 10^th, 2011, 11:27am:

Doreen, the card in question is 764523. I think it's a clear, beautiful image of my beloved lady asleep on the afghan I made for my husband a few years ago. I love her and she's sleeping on a symbol of my love for my husband, so I thought it made a great card.

If it isn't, would you mind telling me why? You're a trained photographer, whereas I've gotten most of my training taking pictures with a few art classes in college. If there's something missing, I'd like to know what so I can make sure it's in future images.

Hi Petra,

I'm more than willing to give you my critique on your photograph. Do you want that here or a private message?

Here is fine, as it will help other artists too.

Okay...

I think the real issue with this card Petra, is that though it evokes emotion for you, because of your personal attachment to both the pup and the lovely gift you made for your husband, to the average viewer, we don't share that sentiment.

Though there isn't necessarily anything wrong technically with the photograph, the exposure, tonal value and sharpness are certainly okay...what I see is a snapshot of a dog on a brightly colored and rumbled blanket. The expression on the dog's face does not make me feel like Valentine's Day, more like Sorry You're Down or Get Well Soon. So, in my opinion your image does not express your message.

I have work like this too...we all do. It's part of the learning process, to be able to look at your photographs with eyes that are not jaded by the sentiment you feel about the subject and ask yourself what, if any, message are you trying to convey.

One other thing to think about when creating cards is what message the front of the card expresses if only a small amount of the card is initially seen. When creating cards for Greeting Card Publishers, like Hallmark for example, the rule that really must be followed is that the top 1/3 of the card has to be eye catching to grab attention when in a card rack. Creating to sell online that rule doesn't really apply, however now you have the challenge of creating something that will catch the viewers eye as a thumbnail image. Other than a heart shape, what tells the viewer based solely on the front of this card, what message is being conveyed?

I hope this all makes sense and gives you at least one opinion of why this particular card may not have been considered (as is) marketable to the public.

I hope you consider this helpful. I am trying to help not discourage.

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Mindy

GCU Administrator
Community Manager

Posts: 6567
Gender: female

Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs
Reply #46 - Feb 15^th, 2011, 7:04pm

Quote from Donna_137698 on Feb 10^th, 2011, 8:37am:

well, after admission that some of the reviewers are not qualified, then this really becomes a problem when it comes to rejections because now I'll really be scratching my head on why a card is rejected.

Setting guidelines on what is acceptable is obviously something we will need then - as mentioned by Denise... do we refocus as illustrators/designers vs artists? Do we have to have our work fit into neat little boxes now? I NEED to know because I'm totally dumbfounded now cry

A much delayed response from me, sorry. Thanks for sitting tight and as I reply I will be honest that I have not read each and every word of this debated thread but have quickly perused it to get the primary issues and concerns in an effort to reply sooner than much later. Please let me know if I've overlooked something.

First, I don't recall every saying that our reviewers are not qualified. If so I am quite confident it was taken out of context.

More importantly is the overall concept of declining cards based on marketability. The overall concept here is for GCU to not market work that falls below the bar. Our collection of cards should reflect only quality work. I will share that the bar will not be as high as you think so most of you need not worry.

This should be viewed by artists as a way of getting their artwork seen through the noise of home snapshots and not so skillfully-done hand drawn work. There will be no discriminating as to the artists' professional training or lack of.

Images of questionable marketability will be flagged by the review team however the final decision will reside with GCU staff members.

Approving cards that will not sell does not serve anyone well including the submitting artist. Overall this will improve the review time however that is not the primary reason for this undertaking.

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Mindy

GCU Administrator
Community Manager

Posts: 6567
Gender: female

Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs
Reply #47 - Feb 15^th, 2011, 7:28pm

Quote from Doreen_137017 on Feb 11^th, 2011, 8:19am:

Quote from Petra_Katrine_137769 on Feb 11^th, 2011, 7:51am:

Quote from Doreen_137017 on Feb 10^th, 2011, 11:41am:

Quote from Petra_Katrine_137769 on Feb 10^th, 2011, 11:27am:

Doreen, the card in question is 764523. I think it's a clear, beautiful image of my beloved lady asleep on the afghan I made for my husband a few years ago. I love her and she's sleeping on a symbol of my love for my husband, so I thought it made a great card.

If it isn't, would you mind telling me why? You're a trained photographer, whereas I've gotten most of my training taking pictures with a few art classes in college. If there's something missing, I'd like to know what so I can make sure it's in future images.

Hi Petra,

I'm more than willing to give you my critique on your photograph. Do you want that here or a private message?

Here is fine, as it will help other artists too.

Okay...

I think the real issue with this card Petra, is that though it evokes emotion for you, because of your personal attachment to both the pup and the lovely gift you made for your husband, to the average viewer, we don't share that sentiment.

Though there isn't necessarily anything wrong technically with the photograph, the exposure, tonal value and sharpness are certainly okay...what I see is a snapshot of a dog on a brightly colored and rumbled blanket. The expression on the dog's face does not make me feel like Valentine's Day, more like Sorry You're Down or Get Well Soon. So, in my opinion your image does not express your message.

I have work like this too...we all do. It's part of the learning process, to be able to look at your photographs with eyes that are not jaded by the sentiment you feel about the subject and ask yourself what, if any, message are you trying to convey.

One other thing to think about when creating cards is what message the front of the card expresses if only a small amount of the card is initially seen. When creating cards for Greeting Card Publishers, like Hallmark for example, the rule that really must be followed is that the top 1/3 of the card has to be eye catching to grab attention when in a card rack. Creating to sell online that rule doesn't really apply, however now you have the challenge of creating something that will catch the viewers eye as a thumbnail image. Other than a heart shape, what tells the viewer based solely on the front of this card, what message is being conveyed?

I hope this all makes sense and gives you at least one opinion of why this particular card may not have been considered (as is) marketable to the public.

I hope you consider this helpful. I am trying to help not discourage.

Petra,
Doreen has shared some wonderful advice and insight. I will add mine as well.

I'll use the saying "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". This rings true so often with photographs featuring artists' pets, family members, household objects, etc. Too often what you see and feel often does not translate as you think it does.

Your challenge as an artist is to take your home photo to the next level. First be sure to use a photo that captures Carmelita at her best and then to remove any elements of the image that may lead shoppers to think "home snapshot" which also translates to unprofessional which is what the review team means by "distracting". Elements like the couch arm, the homemade blanket. With editing software you can somewhat easily remove/replace the background and make a big difference. As an artist this is a technique worth learning.

It is easy to lose sight of something when you're too close to it.

Key Terms also:
Your card title and keywords mention Carmelita. Which is ok however not likely terms a shopper would use to find a tan and white chihuahua. It's important to think like the shopper and use terms that describe how they would see the image. The breed and color are key terms that would lead an interested shopper to your card (white and tan chihuahua?).

Take a peek here although not a perfect example for "dog photo" cards. Notice those images that pop where attention was given to editing backgrounds and eliminating elements that may make it look like a home snapshot and notice those that don't pop and are lacking in editing:
http://www.greetingcarduniverse.com/shopping/cb.asp?keyword=dog+photo

Hope this is helpful. Please let me know if you have any other questions and a big thank you for your patience.

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Dolores_138423

GCU Newbies
artist

Posts: 31

Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs
Reply #48 - Feb 16^th, 2011, 10:36am

Personally, I think there so much much stuff to wade through on POD sites, I welcome raising the bar. I spent decades of my art life in fine art classrooms and thought rather highly of my work, but designing for commercial purposes is a whole different thing. I am often wish I had a second opinion from someone experienced in the commercial area.
Plus, this site is free for us and it is GCU who must decide how to focus their business.
My experience in submitting to card publishers was a 2-4 month wait just to receive a form rejection letter.
Everything about this site is geared to giving the shopper a rich and relvant search shopping experience.

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Bettie__142065

Senior Member
artist

Posts: 490

Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs
Reply #49 - Feb 16^th, 2011, 10:52am

Quote: I'm currently unemployed and cannot afford to take classes. Anything I've learned about photography has been on trial and error and the occasional feedback more or less from friends and attempting to learn from a wide variety of websites on the topic. I did join one online group and all they did was ream me left and right on every submission made - more or less telling me I'd never accomplish anything with a camera - that my work 'sucked' - no feedback beyond that, no suggestions to improve, no nothing nada. Discouraging - you bet!!! Did it force me to up my ante? NO!!! Why? Because I couldn't get a straight answer or suggestion on what to do to improve. So, if the images made me happy, then that was that... to heck with their opinions... and when I expressed my displeasure with the rudeness of the group, I got told off that if I was out there only for fun then I'd never learn anything. Well, excuse me - but would you learn something if the only comment made was your image/work "sucked" and there was no quantification/explanation made as to why? I think this is where Petra and myself are very concerned. "

I don't quite know why you are upset. When I upload my cards to GCU, I am told which photos are best ,and I use the one suggested by GCU.And I don't know which web sites you used for critiquing your photos,but the ones I use are all very helpful. I have never had anyone on any of them tell me my photos "sucked" although I am sure many times they do. I use the forum sites for Canon because that is the camera I have.P.O.T. On the net is a great site if you haven't used it,and the folks on the forums I have been on bend over backward to help. Now it' is up to me to either use their guidance or not...
Here is a link to one I use.. It is very informative and fun as well. Good luck with your photography.http://www.digital-photography-school.com/digital-photography-tips-for-beginners

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Donna_137698

Gold Member
artist

Posts: 1064

Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs
Reply #50 - Feb 16^th, 2011, 1:04pm

Bettie, I'm upset because if the "bar is to be raised", I do hope those parameters will be spelled out. I myself was getting a feeling that it would mean that only "professionals" will be allowed to post. I stand corrected if this is NOT the case. I've been on some pretty bad forums for posting for critiques of my work... I learn from example and I'm NOT a professional in that I don't have a degree nor did I go to school for art. I simply want to know what is more or less expected at this point in regards to work submitted if the bar is being raised - WHAT does that mean exactly as defined in layman's terms? If art is subjective, I am terribly confused as to what this will mean for the work I have done here and hope to continue to do. I do invite folks to examine what I have done. Will what I have submitted lately meet with the new expectations?

And thank you for the links... I too have a Canon and will look into any suggestions made to improve on what I do.

Mindy, I apologize if I took your note out of context and I apologize to the review staff. BUT, I do need some guidance as to where my art is at and where GCU is going and if I meet with whatever new parameters you are setting. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. For myself, I got on this thread because I've made and sold a few copies of "snap shot" type cards. So for me to learn what's expected now, I need concrete information. I didn't understand how removing a colorful blanket in Petra's image would make less distracting because I've done a few like it. Are these no longer acceptable? I have two cards that have sold a copy each (not anyone I know and not by me) - both have two cats sitting or laying next to each other - they are not cropped out or digitally enhanced in any way - it's a snap shot if you will. Would cards like these no longer be acceptable even if done with humorous verses or are properly themed? I am planning to thoroughly examine all my earlier work submitted here and either revamp the images or scrap them and start fresh with new submissions.

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Eve_138255 Ex Member	Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs Reply #51 - Feb 16^th, 2011, 1:24pm Donna, for what it's worth, I think your cards are delightful and if I didn't have my own card shop I wouldn't hesitate to buy your cards. I love the Mother's Day card with the two cats and its not my idea of a 'snap shot' You're doing fine.
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Donna_137698 Gold Member artist Posts: 1064	Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs Reply #52 - Feb 16^th, 2011, 1:57pm Thank you, Eve... I know this was a tense thread, but I do feel some good is coming of it... at least some direction and I hope Petra will find encouragement as well. We have quite a bit to learn and are eager to meet the needs of GCU if we can. And to Ernestine, I'm SO SORRY for hijacking your thread...
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Mindy

GCU Administrator
Community Manager

Posts: 6567
Gender: female

Re: Reviewers asking us to CHANGE ART or PHOTOs
Reply #53 - Feb 16^th, 2011, 6:02pm

Quote from Donna_137698 on Feb 16^th, 2011, 1:04pm:

Bettie, I'm upset because if the "bar is to be raised", I do hope those parameters will be spelled out. I myself was getting a feeling that it would mean that only "professionals" will be allowed to post. I stand corrected if this is NOT the case. I've been on some pretty bad forums for posting for critiques of my work... I learn from example and I'm NOT a professional in that I don't have a degree nor did I go to school for art. I simply want to know what is more or less expected at this point in regards to work submitted if the bar is being raised - WHAT does that mean exactly as defined in layman's terms? If art is subjective, I am terribly confused as to what this will mean for the work I have done here and hope to continue to do. I do invite folks to examine what I have done. Will what I have submitted lately meet with the new expectations?

And thank you for the links... I too have a Canon and will look into any suggestions made to improve on what I do.

Mindy, I apologize if I took your note out of context and I apologize to the review staff. BUT, I do need some guidance as to where my art is at and where GCU is going and if I meet with whatever new parameters you are setting. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. For myself, I got on this thread because I've made and sold a few copies of "snap shot" type cards. So for me to learn what's expected now, I need concrete information. I didn't understand how removing a colorful blanket in Petra's image would make less distracting because I've done a few like it. Are these no longer acceptable? I have two cards that have sold a copy each (not anyone I know and not by me) - both have two cats sitting or laying next to each other - they are not cropped out or digitally enhanced in any way - it's a snap shot if you will. Would cards like these no longer be acceptable even if done with humorous verses or are properly themed? I am planning to thoroughly examine all my earlier work submitted here and either revamp the images or scrap them and start fresh with new submissions.

A good constructive discussion has evolved here. Points will be taken as we develop the marketability guidelines and yes, there will be some specifics as to what about the creative we have determined not to market.

Yes, snapshots will still be accepted but with, as usual, a subjective eye on potentially distracting elements.

I had a great example of a before and after image of a cat rolling on the floor. If I can find them I'll share them here. It would be useful for us to provide example images with the guidelines ie: in the wiki. Yes?

Again, it will not be a major upheaval. It is not that the bar is being raised, there has been no bar so we'd just like to set one. It will not be difficult to reach.

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« Last Edit: Mar 22^nd, 2011, 1:18pm by Mindy »

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