GCU Forum - Honor System

Patricia_132015

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Re: Honor System
Reply #15 - Feb 10^th, 2008, 11:50pm

Just reading this reads scary. I don't do poems much and if I do one it'd be related to the card I made. It would be something general and not specific. What if someone made a poem they thought was something they made and it's been around since before A.D.? I'd try to make a poem short though. If I had to read a page or 2 or 3 or more of a card, I'd get bored real fast and not want to read it. I've got a short term memeory for something that long winded. I'm no pro, but I do know about copy rights enough to know it's bad to steal someone else's stuff. I'm an artist, I'm pretty sure I am. You do know that there are thousands of poems out there and might be even in the millions or billions in meny books. You need a pro on this one, which I'm not. Scary stuff to see your work copied. I want to be kept informed on this one. Reads like we need to know more on this.

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Picture_131439

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Re: Honor System
Reply #16 - Feb 11^th, 2008, 9:11am

As a regular on other POD forums, I can assure you that this is unfortunately a very common occurance. I've had a phrase I have NEVER heard ANYWHERE else suddely show up in another shop, with the words in the exact placement as my own (not on GCU, elsewhere). I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this isn't an isolated incident, and have recently looked through cards here and noticed some people seem to focus on creating a lot that are very similar to those in the best/bulk sellers.

It's wonderful and rosey to believe everyone is here to find a fun creative outlet and the money is just icing on the cake, but the reality is that this is a way to make money and where there is money, there will be those that are looking for an easy way to get some-deserved or not.

As far as I know, proving IP can be fuzzy even when it seems clear cut and trademarking and copywriting can be expensive. I would suggest if you have something you truley want to protect, either don't use it in a public place where it can be copied or go through the effort of protecting it legally before you do use it. Otherwise, continue to create new and wonderful designs and words and stay ahead of the copycats. I think that the real artists will always come out on top simply because they can continue to evolve, whereas the copycats have to wait for new material to steal and they will always be a step behind.

As for my copycat elsewhere, I just made a "new and improved" version of my design which is probably outselling the copycat's by now...

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Kathy_131448

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Re: Honor System
Reply #17 - Feb 11^th, 2008, 12:41pm

Hi Teri,

So sorry to hear that someone "borrowed" your specially-created verses. A couple times when I thought of a few words that I considered clever (well, clever at least to me!), I wondered if any other card artist here would use them - I guess I have my answer now. I haven't looked around here much, I just try to do my own little thing and try not to be influenced by what others are creating.

There are others here much more talented at card-making and writing then I am - I do some simple, "cute" style drawings for cards, and have also made a few cards using images from copyright-free image books. Before I used them, I contacted the company to find out if it was okay to use the images for resale on cards that would be printed and sold. They said yes; they have a very lenient policy, but they are the exception I think, where images are concerned.

It's too bad that a small number of greedy individuals can spoil things for everyone else - well, as they say, it will all catch up to them in the end! Hope you feel a little better about things now, being ripped off is sometimes a hard thing to get past!

Kat

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Lisa_131617

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Re: Honor System
Reply #18 - Feb 11^th, 2008, 9:15pm

What great comments from everyone. Ditto from me (The word Ditto being my best attempt at plagerism with a smile!). Teri you were fortunate to spot the plagerizer and we can thank you for not shrugging this off. You added that "If the person who took my verses had altered the words or changed the syntax, I would have shrugged it off and moved on" - However, I disagree with settling - even altering your words is theft.
And I hope that GCU takes the position that art or verse theft is cause for big GCU boot. Cheers, Lisa Charlton, ORIGINAL Artist!!

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Catherine_131549 Full Member artist Posts: 141	Re: Honor System Reply #19 - Feb 12^th, 2008, 8:34am Wow, just caught up on all this! I would like to see what Mindy & Co advise on this. I have lots of opinions, some of which have been addressed, but let's just see what the outcome is (It wasn't hard to figure out who the artist is though).
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Teri Francis_131425

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Posts: 326

Re: Honor System
Reply #20 - Feb 12^th, 2008, 12:32pm

Hi Ernestine, Patricia, Picture, Kathy, Lisa, and Catherine,

Many thanks to all of you for your support and input on this topic.

I have not yet heard anything from Mindy or GCU. I realize it's going to take some time for them to look into this and advise us how we should deal with it if or when it happens to us. But, it should only take five minutes to look at the cards in question and see what's going on.

I’m not sure if I should (or if I am allowed to) contact the other person directly and request that she remove the verses from her cards. I did ask for guidance on this from GCU. My preference is to have GCU address the request to her since mine are not the only ones involved, but I will wait a bit longer to see what GCU recommends. I’ll also run it by a lawyer friend of mine tonight and see what he suggests. I honestly don’t know what else to do at this point.

Hopefully, we’ll get some kind of acknowledgment like, “hey, we’re looking into this…” either in this thread or somewhere on the forum.

Thanks again to all for voicing your good thoughts on this issue.

Teri

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Teri Francis_131425

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Posts: 326

Re: Honor System
Reply #21 - Feb 12^th, 2008, 12:51pm

Quote from Ernestine_131365 on Feb 10^th, 2008, 4:35pm:

Teri & all-

...
they are stealing from their own backyard. We each don't have the time to be constantly checking out others images, let alone verses (which takes even more scrutiny).

...
Twenty years ago every card tried to look like Mary Engelbriet's sweet children, before that the simple line cats and & hippos of Carolyn Boyton were copied ad-nausea. . . and of course a Mother's Day card with flowers and sentiment is hardly anything new. . . Hallmark's made a fortune on that. Be inspired, sure, but copy one of their illustrations or one of their exact verses!?! Can you spell "lawsuit?' They probably have as many lawyers as they do staff artists and writers.

GCU staff can't be expected to catch everyone of these infringements, but be aware that someone else may, and the consequences may be more that just a rejected card! Let's honor and respect each-others hard work.

Have a Nice Day!

Now the above wasn't very original was it? But then I'm not trying to sell it either!

-Ernestine

Ernestine … your perspective and thoughts were very well said. Heck, put them on one of your cards and I’ll buy it!

Unfortunately, I’ve discovered that some GCU artists are in fact taking verses—word for word—from both Hallmark and American Greeting cards (same or similar categories) as well as other sources. It’s pretty easy to check … just Google a suspect verse and the first thing that pops up on the hit list is the corresponding Hallmark or AG greeting card.

Folks … taking verses from other greeting card companies, especially the big guns with the big lawyers, is extremely unwise!

It’s obviously wrong to do … it’s illegal … and it threatens all of us here at GCU. Perhaps they don’t see GCU as major player yet … but sooner or later someone at Hallmark or AG is going to look at GCU and start scrutinizing the competition … and I think we can all surmise what will happen then if this conduct is not checked.

Ernestine, I agree wholeheartedly that GCU can’t monitor or cross-check every card submitted. We each bear responsibility for what we submit, and that is clearly written in the TOS. But I think GCU needs to come up with some method to keep this from patently happening on a large scale. Not only that, I think they have some major house-cleaning to do before any of the big guys start looking closely at us.

All members need to be told very clearly that this is not acceptable. They need to be informed of the consequences if they violate the rules here … or the law.

Very sad situation. Sad

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Teri Francis_131425

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Posts: 326

Re: Honor System
Reply #22 - Feb 12^th, 2008, 2:00pm

Quote from Catherine_131549 on Feb 12^th, 2008, 8:34am:

Wow, just caught up on all this! Shocked

I would like to see what Mindy & Co advise on this. I have lots of opinions, some of which have been addressed, but let's just see what the outcome is (It wasn't hard to figure out who the artist is though).

Hi Catherine ... my favorite Foxy-card lady!

Yes, I think we're all a bit anxious to see what GCU has to say about this. And, more importantly, how it will be dealt with. Huh

As for the "who is" question ... I swear that any indication that I may have given in that regard was truly inadvertant. Perhaps I shouldn't have referenced my cards as I did in a pervious post. I did so simply to illustrate that my cards are specific in nature and catagory, and thus limited to marketing only in those catagories, while the other person is marketing her cards much more broadly ... and using my words inappropriately in doing it.

I apologize if I gave away too much information as I did not intend to layout clues for others to follow.

Catherine, I'd like to send you a private email about what follows here, but in the interest of the attention this thread has received, I think it's better to make a public statement to you here and now. I've visited your store many times since last summer (I love your cards!!!), but I hadn't been there since before the Christmas holidays ... until recently, haven't been here much since last December. When I stopped by today, I saw your cards with the two wine glasses and my heart stopped. One of the cards I submitted on Friday, when this whole mess began, also has two wine glasses. I swear, I had not seen yours before today ... I think there are distinctive differences between them and they are not similarly catagorized. But yours were here before mine, and if you feel that mine too closely resemble yours, I will immediately delete it from my store.

I can vouch that my original drawing was completed in December for my microstock portfolio, so if you have any doubts or questions about that, please let me know. This is a perfect example of how two artists can come up with a similar idea without any malice or ill-intent ... it does happen. I hope it can also serve as an example of professional courtesy and good-will among artists.

Please feel free to let me know either publicly or privately if you would like me to pull that card. Thanks!

Teri

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Mindy

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Re: Honor System
Reply #23 - Feb 12^th, 2008, 3:16pm

This is very unfortunate. In general we will contact any specific artists in question to resolve any issues.

Absolutely we will not tolerate the misuse of original artwork and verses at GCU. It is quite clear in our site T & C at the time of joining GCU as well as a reminder each time a new card is created.

We will be emailing a reminder to all artists along these lines and see where/how we can make this more clear on the site.

As for Teri, thank you for your notice and patience. We have contacted the artist, taken down the identical verses and will let you know the outcome.

.....
Apparently this artist was not aware that text and verse are "creative property" as well. This may be the case with other artists and thus even more important for us to make clear across our site.

As a community we do need to work together and I believe our GCU artists have done an amazing job at doing that to date. Thank you! As our site and community grows it's even more important for all of us to be the eyes and ears of good practices and policies.

Thank you for being good citizens!

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Gina_133039

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Posts: 415

Re: Honor System
Reply #24 - Feb 12^th, 2008, 7:06pm

Teri...sorry to hear of your bad experience. I, too, am a writer... though not by trade. I have published poems and short stories, but mostly, do it for my own pleasure. It is very personal, that which comes from your heart and soul. It would be hard to see it used somewhere other than where you intended it and without permission. If credit were given to the writer, it would be easier to accept. But, as we all know, this is not a perfect world and there are those who mistakenly and at times intentionally, take things which are not their own. I hope you get this settled to your satisfaction. By the way... i love your squirrell get well card. Good luck, not just to you, but to all who come here to sale their artwork in a friendly place. I have only been with GCU for a little over a month, but I love it...

gina

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Catherine_131549

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Re: Honor System
Reply #25 - Feb 13^th, 2008, 1:11am

Hi Teri,

It looks like Mindy & Co are sorting this now, so hopefully the 'copied' work will be removed/changed and this won't happen again, to OR by anyone else on this site.

I think GCU is a fabulous site, I just love it! Everyones friendly, helpful and I am constantly in awe of artists' work here when I have the time to look around. You all inspire me to create more, better cards. I really enjoy it, it is just a (addictive) hobby for me, the money I make is extra and I save it up for something I really want (or a romantic weekend away with my hubby! Wink

)

Good luck everybody

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Teri Francis_131425

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Posts: 326

Re: Honor System
Reply #26 - Feb 13^th, 2008, 11:48pm

Quote from Mindy on Feb 12^th, 2008, 3:16pm:

This is very unfortunate. In general we will contact any specific artists in question to resolve any issues.

Absolutely we will not tolerate the misuse of original artwork and verses at GCU. It is quite clear in our site T & C at the time of joining GCU as well as a reminder each time a new card is created.

We will be emailing a reminder to all artists along these lines and see where/how we can make this more clear on the site.

As for Teri, thank you for your notice and patience. We have contacted the artist, taken down the identical verses and will let you know the outcome.

.....
Apparently this artist was not aware that text and verse are "creative property" as well. This may be the case with other artists and thus even more important for us to make clear across our site.

As a community we do need to work together and I believe our GCU artists have done an amazing job at doing that to date. Thank you! As our site and community grows it's even more important for all of us to be the eyes and ears of good practices and policies.

Thank you for being good citizens!

Thank you, Mindy, for resolving the situation quickly and for addressing the concerns brought up by this.

You are so right ... this is an amazing community! We are all very fortunate to be part of GCU, and I think we all want remain proud of our association with both the company and our fellow artists. I think this experience was one that presented all of us with an opporutnity to express how we "feel" about our work. It also gave us the reassurance that GCU continues to listen and respond to our concerns.

Again, my sincere and heartfelt thanks to all of you for offering your support and thoughts! It was truly overwhelming and deeply appreciated. I look forward to moving beyond this glitch and keeping in contact with all of you in the future.

Best thoughts to all and wishing each of you continued and great success at GCU!

Teri

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Mindy GCU Administrator Community Manager Posts: 6537 Gender:	Re: Honor System Reply #27 - Feb 16^th, 2008, 9:29am Please see this post: http://www.greetingcarduniverse.com/forum/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1203182737/0#0
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El_131850 Full Member artist Posts: 119	Re: Honor System Reply #28 - Feb 17^th, 2008, 11:56pm TERI, Sorry, I read this post too late... but dang, you got dogged. that would be so insulting to have someone just steal your stuff so obviously and not even care....NO CLASS, I say. In one way, you should be flattered in another way.....ANGRY! don't let it discourage you....GCU will do Right by you. GCU ROCKS - EL
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Edition_132952

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Posts: 44

Re: Honor System
Reply #29 - Feb 18^th, 2008, 12:46am

Recently I had a discussion about statistics and the benefits of transparency on sales on another forum. I find the statistics given here on CGU very helpful. But it seems that my collegues in the other forum, who strictly voted against such, are at least partly right.

Now I am very sceptical whether it is good to show the bulk sellers even with number of sold cards and the artist name to everybody. I rather would suggest to pull this view from the site because it delivers the incentive for copyists and it exposes successful or trend setting artists/sellers to them.

I read also through the other thread about copied graphics. After my visit on CGU this morning I am not sure whether this issue is really solved or whether there is just another case.

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